The Brigadier has requested that “this petition appear on the the Blackboard for forward transmission to Herefordshire Council – in due course. If it is necessary for such a petition to be presented in hard written form can somebody please get things moving? I would do it myself if I could, but as I work away I cannot. However I can confirm that I am a Kington council tax payer.”
WE THE UNDERSIGNED PETITION AND REQUEST HEREFORDSHIRE COUNCIL TO REDUCE THE NUMBER OF KINGTON TOWN COUNCILLORS FROM 15 TO 10 EFFECTIVE FROM THE PARISH COUNCIL ELECTIONS DUE TO BE HELD ON MAY 5th 2011
I have to say that Christine Forrester’s idea of democracy is radically different from mine. She has her list of 14 people who, I assume, she thinks would make excellent councillors. I might agree with every name on the list. However I might think that half of them were not up to the job, or did not have the right qualities. I wouldn’t be wrong, because democracy is about having the right to apply ones own subjective judgement when the ballot paper is in your hand. There should therefore – in any event – be more sensible candidates than there are places available.
As for, “The petition feels a bit redundant”, so are all of the completely separate arguments about the council being bloated no longer worthy of debate? A very dismissive remark if I may be so bold. A little presumptuous even. And getting involved in keen debate is NOT sinking to the level of the lunatic fringe. I respect your right to disagree with me – and I suspect around 90% of Kingtonians – about the desirability of reducing the council to 10. But I do find it patronising of you to suggest that the views of many many of us – feel, “a bit redundant”. They most certainly are not.
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“There are a number of questions. Principally – do we know what the “cabal” intend to do at the next election?
What are Newman’s and Trumper’s intentions – are they really going to put themselves up for another four years knowing that they have such little support in the town and are highly likely to be in a very small minority on the council?
Is Barrington likely to stand?
Presumably without Newman and Trumper, some of the others in the “cabal” might not stand or, if they did and were elected, might be allowed to behave differently without the adverse influence of their current leaders?
Handley is out of the area and cannot stand again. I hear that the largely ineffective deputy mayor, John “We’re all amateurs” Grant, is also moving.”
Nothing like saying it how it is. Many folk seem to say ‘Oh it’s just KTC again’, gives all councillors a bad name, when that is far from fair. Now we know who is who. I have my doubts any intentions will be made clear however – given there was so much reluctance to stand for any democratic election (only by the cabal) following the 19th Feb meeting in the Burton last year!
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There are a number of questions. Principally – do we know what the “cabal” intend to do at the next election?
What are Newman’s and Trumper’s intentions – are they really going to put themselves up for another four years knowing that they have such little support in the town and are highly likely to be in a very small minority on the council?
Is Barrington likely to stand?
Presumably without Newman and Trumper, some of the others in the “cabal” might not stand or, if they did and were elected, might be allowed to behave differently without the adverse influence of their current leaders?
Handley is out of the area and cannot stand again. I hear that the largely ineffective deputy mayor, John “We’re all amateurs” Grant, is also moving.
But, in the meantime, is there a more pressing problem which might arise because of the mayor’s potential RHS commitments (as per Peter Harding-Roberts’ report). Is she going to stand as mayor over this coming year until the May 2011 elections? If not, then there is a serious risk that any improvements that have been achieved over the last few months might be lost without her leadership unless a suitable candidate, who can manage the Clerk effectively, can be found in her stead.
If we had positive and encouraging answers to these questions then the petition might be redundant. However, without such answers, the petition probably still has a purpose.
Finally, Mrs Forrester, are you prepared to name your 14??
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“Latest tally of probable people to stand for the elections – around 14. As people are seeing the changes in the council, so they are more willing to put themselves forward. I don’t think that there would be a problem in getting 15 people to stand for change and for the well-being of our community. The petition feels a bit redundant.”
What is required of course is 15 MORE than the present cabal, (TNT and their supporters) who have been in power since the year dot. If just 15 stand, we will always have what we’ve always had!
If all of the cabal stood again, at least 21 candidates would be needed to ensure they can be voted off! Can we be certain At least 21 will stand – IF all of the present incumbents re-stand?
10 is enough if there was no bickering, no complaints, just cohesion and co-operation. Other people can be co-opted for their expertise in specific areas!
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Latest tally of probable people to stand for the elections – around 14. As people are seeing the changes in the council, so they are more willing to put themselves forward. I don’t think that there would be a problem in getting 15 people to stand for change and for the well-being of our community. The petition feels a bit redundant.
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The latest from Ms Adnan:
“I can confirm that the correct figure for Kington Town is indeed 1933 and having checked it was my error – a typographical one compounded when I then did the proportionate calculation. My sincere apologies.
I will return to you on the remaining points.”
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“The RHS, will elect a new President at the Annual General Meeting on 1 July 2010. Elizabeth Banks has been invited by the RHS Council to stand for election to the post.”
Ah, proper democracy!
The other day I asked a former Deputy Mayor what the budget of the parish council is. He thought around £55,000. After you deduct the clerk’s wages, that doesn’t leave much to manage. I am involved in running a pro/am drama festival. Our company, Everyman Theatre Cardiff, is non professional. We hire in professional directors and a designer, but that’s it. Everything else is done by unpaid volunteers like me. All the actors are amateurs and chairing the festival is definitely just my hobby. About half a dozen of us do the work, managing a budget of well over £100,000. If I had 15 people involved, around 10 of them would have little or nothing to do! Perhaps the odd chore. Oh, and we make a profit. http://www.everymanfestival.co.uk
Christine Forrester lists 8 possible candidates (including herself) subject to the caveat, “but I would not blame them for saying “no” if they don’t get support at this stage.” I am not sure what support they want at this stage. Is it support to get rid of the troublemakers? Well, that is what this petition is about. Is it moral support to get them through the next 14 months as otherwise the unending attrition may drive them out like so many before? Well, I am sure they have that, though the fear must be that some of them won’t stand again. That is also what this petition is about. As for votes, well they are surely secure.
So, 8 people who might stand. Hmm, ’tis time to reduce the council’s size methinks.
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Quite quite so. I fully endorse and echo those names you mention, and I’m sure they should all have our full support.
There are others that have put a lot of effort into the council, the President Elect of the RHS, ( http://www.rhs.org.uk/News/New-President-to-be-elected ) and, er, um, others you have not mentioned, so in fairness the others listed as our representatives are John Grant, Bryn Thomas, Micky Turner, Claire Eggerton, Mike Handley, Barbara Trumper, Our very own Local Trader, oops!
But of course they still have the staffing problems (as does No. 10), where any (acceptable and necessary) admonishment is claimed to be ‘bullying’ (which is different, unacceptable – and implausible)
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Thanks to those of you who have left kind remarks about me on this site. Just on the subject of people prepared to stand for the council, as it is being suggested that there is currently only one name – there are some very good people on the council at present who might be prepared to stand again if they felt that they currently had support for what they are trying to do – Bob Widdowson, Janet Thomas, Esther Rolls, Celia, Tom Bounds, Jess, Ros Bradbury – but I would not blame them for saying “no” if they don’t get support at this stage. Having a good panel of candidates also means those thinking of standing feeling confident that they will be supported, not just in an election, but afterwards. Councillors at parish level are volunteers, do it without pay or benefits, and it can be a thankless task!
In terms of initiatives in the town, there are a number of other organisations doing things, such as the Kington Area Regeneration Partnership (KARP). Not everything has to have the town council involved. There are a lot of unsung “heroes” out there doing things for the town, or providing us with services. What is needed is a real partnership between all of these organisations, the Town Council and Herefordshire Council.
Incidentally, what are the local quangos that people belong to that will exert so much influence? I think we should be told!
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This is the sort of thing the council should be promoting: http://www.crickhowellfestival.com/2010/ Crickhowell is roughly the same size as Kington – a bit smaller I think – and they manage a Walking Festival. A Kington Walking Festival (suggested I see on the festival thread) could be at the same time as the Kington Festival – and help to start to re-invigorate the town. And the festival. THAT is what a Town Council should be advancing. Not the number of complaints sub committees!
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I have no idea as to how “consultation” works in these situations. However I would imagine that councillors would automatically be consulted. I would imagine that particular local groups would be consulted. For example Marches Access Point. That is the way these things works isn’t it? I do not think that is democracy in action, that is “the consultation process” in action.
If an individual is active in the town it gives them particular influence. I don’t blame them for giving their views when they are sought. I applaud them for being active – if they are active in a positive way. Not all are, hence this petition!
If my views were sought by Herefordshire Council in a review I would give them. But they won’t be! Chris is entitled to her view (keep 15 councillors). Mick Rand is entitled to his view (keep 15 councillors). They are, I accept, on the side of the angels. Then there is the current council. They will certainly be consulted. Turkeys rarely vote for Christmas. Admittedly on this issue Esther etc may well do. Nonetheless my concern is that “consultation” – with activists rather than simple electors – may lead to the erroneous conclusion, “There is not strong community support for a reduction to 10 councillors.” WRONG!
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I am very surprised at the level of interest and knowledge of the workings of the council, yet very rarely does anyone actually endure the meetings, from the public gallery. Yet all comments are pretty much spot on!
Perhaps more people DO read the Minutes, all E&OE (Errors & Omissions Expected) than anyone might expect.
There may have been a hint of “undue and undemocratic influence behind the scenes!”. I don’t for one moment doubt that has happened, but most certainly NOT by Christine in my view, “Local ‘I-am-not-a-Councillor’ Trader” and one or two others from WITHIN the Council have some questions to answer…………………… Just ask about the non existent Dispensations! Some have been playing the system, ignoring rules, Standing Orders, SfE Advice, FoI Commissioner, etc.
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I agree with Oakapple to this extent. You must know (and acknowledge) who the good guys are – and not descend to the level of the lunatic fringe – some of whom are on the council. Whilst The Brigadier might think it ironic that he was accused by Chris Forrester of patronising her when he seemed (in his rather round about way) to be accusing her of being patronising – so what? This sort of banter or sparring is simply a waste of energy. I have no doubt that both of them have the interests of Kington at heart so, yes, stick to that. And yes, of course, there are some excellent people on the current council.
As for the point about “undue and undemocratic influence behind the scenes” that Peter makes, I assume that is a reference to the consultation process that would presumably accompany a review. I think there is a valid point there. Might the “great and the good” (some of whom are neither great nor good – but rather the problem) exert undue influence on such a process? How – who – would be consulted? Why should one individual’s view carry more weight than an ordinary elector’s? Be wary of that!
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I have emailed Ms Adnan, copying the points made and seeking clarification.
I am most willing to help again with getting signatures, but I am in Cardiff most of the time. I will certainly help over Easter. Somebody or somebodies could start at the Tavern and work up. Might need a strong constitution though. Perhaps somebody could push me round in a wheelbarrow? Seriously though, organising a group of volunteers – good idea. Getting people to sign – piece of cake. I got 31 without breaking sweat last Saturday.
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The guidance on Community Governance Reviews suggests that the process should take about a year. So, if HC work efficiently, the process should be complete by May 2011.
So far, on this posting, we can see ONE new prospect for the council – Christine Forrester. How do you think that 5 to 10 new names can be found, Oakapple?
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Not having posted for sometime, but having followed this thread, I feel a few points need raising. I too was surprised to hear the appaaent sudden increase in the number of people on the town electoral role. 250 or 300 signatures (of those entitled to sign) should not be a problem for those collecting names – but what happens after that? HC are not going to ‘rubber stamp’any decisions, particularly after the recent Christmas Lights fiasco and HC’s need to apologise to the Chamber of Trade and the people of Kington for it’s handling of that sorry episode. Anything now to do with Kington will be done by the book, due dilligence and time taken to get it right. Suggesting that May 2011 will come and go, with a Town Council of 15. Assuming there are 15 councillors at that time and all are eligable to stand for re-election, then a pot of 5 – 10 new names need to be found by then
I am also a little concerned that this thread has become a base for bashing the whole Town Council. Let us remember that there is a core of councillors that are working hard for the Town and trying to put right what has been bad in the Council Chamber for many years, and not afraid to meet the public at the Annual Parish Meeting.
I am also concerned at some of the personal comments against other postees, particularly against Chris Forrester, who,as anyone who knows her, certainly has Kington at her heart and has been at the forefront of several campaigns in Kington over the past few years. Is this thread not liable to be accused of sinking to the depths of a meeting of the Town Council?
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Hello Peter & the Brigadier,
I agree that the more signatures the better we are able to show the strength of feeling.
My concern was that Ms Adan was not properly advising you either in relation to the number of electors in Kington Town or to the correct application of the Act.
Would anyone be interested in a meeting of volunteers who would share the responsibility and accept the task of canvassing around Kington Town?
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In the Dark.
Yes, on reflection 2900 does seem far too high a figure for the electorate of Kington Urban. Sounds closer to the population, but I suspect she (Charlie Adnan – I understand from the editorial correction that Charlie is a lady) has included the rural electors as well. As to the detail of the Act, I have not looked at it, but I take your word as you obviously have. It seems it was me who was in the dark there.
I will email Charlie again in a day or so. However I am completely at one with The Brigadier’s sentiments. We should show as much strength of feeling as we can. They may be obliged to undertake a review. They are not obliged to resolve matters in the way we want – and in the way (I have no doubt)that the overwhelming majority of the Kington populace want. And do not underestimate the power of individuals who may, for example, work for or have worked for local quangos to exert undue and undemocratic influence behind the scenes!
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The minimum target must therefore be 300 signatures. Perhaps even higher as people from the rural may sign in error. To be achieved by the end of Easter. I suggest the aim be to submit it by a given date – having collected at least 500 signatures. So people need to volunteer to take the petition around the town now! At weekends? Over Easter? And at the annual town meeting.
**** This posting was made before the posting by ‘In the Dark’ was approved and therefore was read by ‘The Brigadier’ – Moderator. ****
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Thanks Peter – However, please pass me my anorak.
The last electoral role for Kington Town that I saw showed that the parish had 1913 registered electors, not 2900. I don’t believe that Kington has suddenly gained 1000 new electors. The community governance review (CGR)guidance therefore requires a minimum of 250 signatures on the petition and NOT 290.
The Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Act 2007 is the piece of legislation which provides for CGRs to be undertaken. You can find it on the OPSI web site. The relevant sections commence at Part 4, Chapter 3, section 82.
Herefordshire Council (HC) has not carried out a CGR in Kington before. It is not carrying out a CGR now. Nor am I aware that HC intends to carry out a CGR (even if it did intend to, I don’t believe that the Act covers this possibility as the Act can only deal with what has or is happening).
If HC receives a valid petition, the Act REQUIRES it to, i.e. it says that HC MUST (not “could”), undertake a CGR that has terms of reference that allow for the petition to be considered.
So a valid petition means that HC have to carry out a CGR. It is then for HC to decide what action should be taken following the CGR.
So, Peter, you may wish to ask HC why they have a different interpretation of the Act and ask for clarification of the above points?
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AT LEAST 290 SIGNATURES NEEDED!
I asked Herefordshire Council to give me chapter and verse on this petition issue. Today I received the advice below from Charlie Adan – the Interim Assistant Chief Executive – Legal and Democratic.
“There is a statutory framework within which Herefordshire Council could
undertake a community governance review for the whole or any part of the
County. A community governance review is the mechanism by which changes
can be made to parish arrangements. The Council has no current
intentions to undertake such a review but will be keeping this under
review.
Community governance reviews can also be triggered by a local community
petition. Provided the petition complies with the necessary
requirements, Herefordshire Council would be obliged to consider such a
petition but still has a choice whether to conduct such a review or not.
If it is already undertaking or intending to undertake such a review
when it receives a petition it may decide to include the review to which
the petition relates in the wider ongoing or intended review.
A petition is only valid if it contains the required number of
signatures from those on the electoral register for the area as follows
a) for an area with less than 500 local electors, the petition must be
signed by at least 50% of them;
b) for an area with between 500 and 2,500 local electors, the petition
must be signed by at least 250 of them;
c) for an area with more than 2,500 local electors, the petition must be
signed by at least 10% of them.
I understand that with approximately 2900 electors, Kington Town is in
category (c) above.”
So, the petition will not, she [ed] asserts, oblige a review. I copied my response to Bill Wiggin MP and to the council leader, Councillor Phillips, leader of the Conservative Group) thanking him and saying, inter alia:
“I will be interested to see what the political response is if the necessary signatures are obtained. Not of course a matter for you. The mood in Kington is running pretty high and I know that the Conservatives are advancing “localism”. I approached 32 electors on Saturday. 31 signed enthusiastically. One declined. Not scientific, but that is over 95% in support. Two wanted the council abolished altogether. I also know that it is Conservative policy to reduce the number of MPs. Well, if Hereford City Council only needs 17 it is difficult to see why Kington needs 15. If either Mr Wiggin or Mr Phillips want to go on the record then I will pass it on. A letter in the Mid Wales Journal and the Hereford Times might be – what’s the word – ah yes, politic.”
As there is a General Election imminent and a Herefordshire Council election in 2011 let us hope that both the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats indicate that on a political level they will ensure that there is a review if the necessary signatures are obtained. If they are then I urge you all to email Bill Wiggin MP, Councillor Phillips – and Councillor Terry James.
By the way I think those of us on this website are living in something of a bubble. It was absolutely obvious on Saturday night that hardly anybody at the football club twinning quiz or in the Oak knew about this petition. If it is going to happen there must be people prepared to firstly get out and about with it. Then, secondly, when overwhelming support has been demonstrated, put political pressure on the Herefordshire Council to act on the democratically expressed demands of the Kington electors – plus one disenfranchised Council Tax payer. So don’t stop at 290 signatures!
As for the town meeting, I would suggest that energies would be best directed at getting signatures. Have a debate if you want, but debates rarely change people’s minds. People generally come to express entrenched views – unless it is a matter they know little or nothing about. In relation to Kington Council I would imagine that after years of the council being completely dysfunctional, views could not be more entrenched.
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A vote at the Annual Town Meeting carries little weight. Some councillors refused to attend last year, which was an insult to the Town, and may not this year. The Town Council has taken little notice of what the mayor promised at last year’s meeting. Herefordshire Council would not have to act on a vote at the Town Meeting. And Maude/Local Trader would argue that some of those who put their hands up are from outside the parish boundary, relative newcomers or people with too much time on their hands!!
However, a petition with sufficient signatures, which is coming forward under the relevant Act of Parliament, REQUIRES Herefordshire Council to take action and undertake the necessary review.
Perhaps the Annual Town Meeting could therefore best consider other matters but, first, we all ought to be provided with a copy of the minutes of last year’s meeting so that we can be reminded of the issues that remain outstanding.
Before the Annual Town Meeting comes the Town Council AGM at which the mayor, deputy mayor and committees are appointed, followed soon after by meetings at which committee chairs are appointed. Perhaps a new posting on the Blackboard could consider who ought to be on committees and, importantly, who Kington Town want to provide more effective and efficient leadership, and deliver on more of their promises, as their mayor, deputy mayor and committee chairs (or NOT!!) for the coming year?
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