The Brigadier has requested that “this petition appear on the the Blackboard for forward transmission to Herefordshire Council – in due course. If it is necessary for such a petition to be presented in hard written form can somebody please get things moving? I would do it myself if I could, but as I work away I cannot. However I can confirm that I am a Kington council tax payer.”
WE THE UNDERSIGNED PETITION AND REQUEST HEREFORDSHIRE COUNCIL TO REDUCE THE NUMBER OF KINGTON TOWN COUNCILLORS FROM 15 TO 10 EFFECTIVE FROM THE PARISH COUNCIL ELECTIONS DUE TO BE HELD ON MAY 5th 2011
Thanks to CJ for delivering the forms to the football club. I asked 32 people if they agreed and would sign. 31 enthusiastically agreed and signed. 1 declined saying he always preferred the status quo. Again, not completely scientific, but that was over 95% in favour. Though two did say they wanted the Town Council abolished altogether.
If a few people are proactive I have no doubt (from my experience on Saturday night – in the football club and in the Oak) that the necessary signatures would very quickly be obtained. By that I mean going round the town asking people to sign, or perhaps setting up a stall in the Market Hall on a Saturday or over Easter? If there are just forms behind the counter in shops or behind the bars in pubs they will possibly be forgotten about.
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Ah Well! Here we go then! I do hope I am not going to regret this.
It will soon be time for the Annual Parish Bun fight so why not have the number of councillors as an agenda item? It could then be debated sensibly at that meeting. I would like to see it done Oxford Union style – a speaker for, a speaker opposing and a vote. Also I would like to see a report given by the Council as to the outcome of the Complaints meetings.
If Kington Town Council is given notice that these two items will be on the agenda it should hone up the urgency of having answers ready for the Annual meeting.
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Thanks Emma. BUT ………. the dysfunctional Town Council and its Clerk have been left to their own devices for far too long and look what they have done. I agree that there appear to be some changes in progress which might help to improve matters (but does the Council really need 15 councillors and TWO complaints panels??) but the fact is that there are still significant shortcomings in the ways in which the council and the Clerk operate.
The changes that have recently taken place have clearly been influenced by postings on this web site. The Town’s anger over the Christmas lights found an outlet through this site, as did the furore over the Clerk’s proposed “annual increment” pay rise and his proposals to censor/censure people who dared to complain about him on this very site (which has since backfired because the Council are now looking into the raft of complaints made against HIM!!) I wonder whether the Council would be taking matters so seriously if the Blackboard didn’t provide the means for the public to freely express their views.
Some may consider it to be council bashing, and some of the postings do perhaps fall into this category, but a lot of what appears on the Blackboard makes for valid discussion and debate which is something that some on the Council, and the spouse of one councillor in particular, do not want to entertain.
The worst thing that we can do now is to relieve the pressure because the “Old Guard”, who do not want change, will simply continue as they were. The Council has had years to sort itself out and the “Old Guard’s” time is up. The next 15 months as we move towards the 2011 elections are critical and we must continue to speak out when the council does wrong and when it is seen to be dragging its heels on key matters of concern to the people of Kington.
I agree that there are many other issues that affect Kington that need to be discussed on this web site, and there are lots of positives (KLEEN energy week has been a great success, for one) but doesn’t it say something about how significant the council/clerk issue is when the focus continues to come back to such matters?
In my view, it doesn’t help to suggest that we should move on to discuss other matters – in fact, that might be suggested to be undemocratic, would deny everyone’s opportunity to raise issues as and when they arise and would allow those who have performed so poorly in the past to get away with it.
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It is reported in the Mid Wales Journal that the Parish Council now has TWO committees – dealing with complaints against the council! Not dealing with reinvigorating the town. Those of us who know the personalities who have led us to this farcical position – over many years – realise that no ammount of “training” is going to address personality defects. I wonder if Emma Phillips takes a similar view in relation to MPs’ expenses. Should we say that, “they appear to have taken steps to deal with these matters” and ask that “they be allowed to have some time to ‘get their house in order’”? Or should we yearn for the day when we are shot of them?
These councillors are not capable of sorting themselves out. They are a disgrace and they have brought ridicule on the town. It is naieve in extremis to suggest that they can sort themselves out.
In relation to the petition (which is what THIS thread is about) some people have asked in the past if it would be possible to abolish the town council altogether. I don’t know if there is statutory provision for that. I think there is in Wales where the councils are called “Community Councils”. I have never supported that nuclear option (if it is an option) but if there are some who want the number of parish councillors reduced from 15 to zero then that demonstrates how moderate the proposal is to reduce the number merely to 10.
In relation to the “many other issues that affect Kington that we can all continue to discuss on this site” that Emma Phillips refers to I suggest she identifies them and starts a new thread where we can do so. “So please do so.”
Incidentally I am told that there is NOT a copy of the petition in the Oak and indeed that the landlord and landlady know nothing about it.
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As a person who works in Kington I see and hear much about Kington Town Council, the Councillors and the Clerk. The Council and the Clerk have been much criticised recently however they appear to have taken steps to deal with these matters. Now that these issues have been raised in the public domain please, please can they be allowed to have some time to ‘get their house in order’ which they do seem to be doing. This is only fair, right and proper. In fact it is the ONLY professional way to behave. If this constant Council-bashing continues the very issues that are being complained about will remain.
So I ask everyone, Please can we have some time when the Council are left to deal with their issues and put their plan in place.
There are many other issues that affect Kington that we can all continue to discuss on this site. So please do so.
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This is becoming surreal. This is a PARISH COUNCIL! A friend of mine in Cardiff served as the Cabinet member on Cardiff City Council in charge of social services whilst holding down a demanding full time job. My maternal grandfather, my mother and my aunt all served variously on the Kington UDC and the Kington RDC whilst working full time. Indeed I think my grandfather served on both councils at the same time. And those old pre 1974 district councils had real powers.
I think half the problem is that some of the current councillors have a grossly inflated view of their own self importance and a grossly inflated view of what it is to be a parish councillor. Indeed one of them once ambushed me in the street so as to tell me what a hugely significant contribution she made to the town. She then invited me to the next parish council meeting to see it all in action. I declined. I was going to be engaged in the far more enjoyable hobby of sticking hot needles in my eyes.
I am not denigrating the institution. It may have little or no power, but what it does have is the opportunity to represent the interests of the townsfolk and give leadership in moving the town forwards – rather than backwards. Which it sorely needs. Personally I think half a dozen people could carry out the functions of this parish council – and I think the comparison with Hereford City Council is a perfectly valid one. Any comparison with Cardiff City Council (or their councillors’ burdens) would, conversely, be entirely invalid. However I think that 10 is a perfectly reasonable compromise. And a generous one.
I would be interested to know what the budget of the Town Council is. That might lead to other reasonable analogies.
I would concede that in district councils such as Herefordshire Council there can be a problem with councillors being drawn largely from the ranks of the retired, the semi retired or the self employed – because the burden is too great for those of us who still go out to work every day. However I do not accept that the same applies to parish councillors. And, for the record, I am not eligible to stand, despite owning a home in the town. Honest!
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Thank you, in the Dark, and also Peter. Of course I would go with the democratic will, but I would hope that those who are signing the petition are doing so on the basis of good information. Maybe there is a compromise – I really do think 10 is too small, but maybe 12? We need enough councillors to ensure that those who have other work (like those who are employed, have other responsibilities etc) can serve without feeling that being on the council is onerous. We need accountability and a more open council. But most importantly, we need to concentrate on the issues, rather than just the personalities. I’ve just been discussing eco-tourism with an organisation – slow food movement, increasing tourism footfall and the development of local businesses to increase tourism in rural areas. This is the kind of issue that the Town Council in Kington should be working with Kington Regeneration Partnership on, and with Herefordshire Council. We risk losing opportunties, and thereby risk not benefitting the town.
So – who else is willing to put their name forward on this site, to stand for the council because they want to keep and make sure that Kington is a great place to live? I don’t yet notice anyone else rising to this challenge!
(And by the way, my comment about being in Ukraine bringing democracy was a bit toungue in cheek. But I am saddened that as a result, others who are contributors to this site decided to have a go at me. Ah well, c’est la vie!)
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Sadly, despite being an overburdened Kington Council Tax payer I am not on the Kington electoral roll – so I am not, it seems, eligible to sign this petition. However I can say this. Nobody that I have spoken to in the town (and I am there a lot of the time) has expressed any support for retaining 15 councillors. That is not a scientific opinion poll, but if those of you who don’t get out and about as much as me do get out and about – I think you will find that the reduction has overwhelming support.
So, get signing and get encouraging others to sign. I will be doing just that at the weekend. CJ – can you get sheets to the twinning quiz at the Football Club on Saturday? If I am right and if the overwhelming democratic will is for there to be a reduction no doubt Chris Forrester will be the first to urge Herefordshire Council to go with the democratic will of the people. And I am not being patronising. I am simply accepting that she will professionally stick to her principles – even if her personal view is that we should give 15 yet another try.
I am tempted to quote the Irish, “Vote Early, Vote Often”. Better not, don’t want to invalidate the petition! However I would observe, in relation to humour, (which can indeed be very effective) that you should only use it against others if you are prepared to be the first to laugh – when the joke is at your expense.
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I agree with Chris Forrester – let’s put a stop to the in-fighting as that, after all, has been one of the main problems with the Council for far too long.
She has put her name forward for May 2011. That’s one potential candidate so far, so where are the other fourteen? Will anyone else rise to the challenge?
If those watching this site consider that, on the basis of the evidence so far and the arguments put forward by the Brigadier, finding 15 good councillors is likely to be too big an ask then they should sign the petition to reduce the number to 10 to make it easier to find the right people.
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I must apologise for my spelling mistake. Most remiss of me. I hope that I do not patronise people in Kington – what I do to earn my living is a fact,not a way of patronising. I hope that those who know me in Kington know that over the years I have tried to do as much as I can for the town and I do object to the tone which suggests that I “lecture”. As I said, I am willing to put myself up for election to the Town Council, as this was the challenge that was offered. I am concerned, and have noted in other comments on this site, that the town council – as it is presently constituted – is given the opportunity to put right those things which have caused concern to many in the past. I would like to see others now saying that they will stand for election – and that also means coming out from behind the pseudonyms. Those of us who were involved in setting up this site did not do it “for a bit of fun” but to provide a forum for discussion of a wide range of issues that are of concern to people in Kington. Whilst humour is of great benefit, there is a risk that the site becomes discredited if it is used unconstructively. And now I know I will yet again be accused of lecuturing! I showed this site on Monday to some young Ukrainians, who were excited by the potential of a web based forum for ideas and discussion – I did this because I am very proud of Kington, and despite our current issues, it is a great place to live. So can we do a bit of emphasising the positive, leave some of the personal slights and insults out of it and use the site for constructive ideas that can continue to improve Kington?
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Of course I completely agree with CJ. The petition is a very serious attempt to reform and improve the governance of Kington in circumstances where no other attempts have come to anything. Prior to the last Town Council elections there was a concerted effort to get more than 15 people to stand, so as to give the electors a chance to get shot of those they wanted rid of. As I recall Dick East was pursuaded (probably against his better judgement) to stand again. In the event there were, I think, 15 candidates and no election – again.
It has become a self fulfilling prophecy. “If I stand I fear an uncontested election which will mean I will have to work with those dreadful people.” So some don’t stand. Others do, live to regret it and resign. Never to stand again. Time to cut the Gordian Knot and cut the council to 10.
SIGN THE PETITION! WELL DONE CJ! Just the sort of man we need in the regiment. Or rather, the brigade – since my promotion!
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“As for this site, well, if we want to have a bit of fun by using pseudonyms we will continue to do so. When it comes to signing the petition – which on a straw poll appears to have much more support than opposition – then we will (of course) not be using pseudonyms.”
To make it absolutely clear, the PETITION is a serious legally enabled Petition under the Local Government…. Act 2007, and is ONLY for Kington Voters, it requires 250 signatures. It has a Statutory significance, and should lead to the widely desired reduction in numbers of KTC to a sharper, more effective and cohesive team. It is available in Kings, Tavern, Oxford Arms, Chocolate Box, Burton, Oak, afaik, and doubtless many more, so pop in and lets send a resounding message! (I know you were not suggesting otherwise, B)
Using pseudonyms, (or being able to) on the Blackboard has some advantages, similar to secret voting at the ballot box!!! Some people can not express their own views openly for various reasons. There is no objection if, for example a councillor wished to post using a pseudonym, although unlike local trader denying she is a councillor when she is, is not acceptable, as we EXPECT honesty from our councillors.
But of course if someone does not use their name, the view has less credibility than a known local. They do have a right to state their view, and for us readers to decide if it is a troll or true. I even doubt that ‘Barrington Trumper’ is really Bazzer……..
As for your identity Brigadier, I had to chuckle when a couple of local dignitaries had made (respectful) mention of your your name, then went on to discuss who the Brigadier was. They were not aware then and probably still not……
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I agree with Christine Forrester. She is of course quite right. There must not be a single reduction in the number of Town Councillors. If “The Brigadier” (and I certainly know who you are my friend) was seeking to suggest that Chris was trying to patronise Kingtonians when she said,
“One of the reasons this email comes from Ukraine is that I am working here on programmes to strenghten democracy and accountability of elected bodies to the citizens.”
- nonsense! She is merely pointing out a fact! She is far better educated and informed about democracy than your average carrot cruncher! Despite the odd spelling mistake! Like me – not that I make mistakes – spelling or otherwise!
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I would be amazed if Kingtonians don’t know who I am, irrespective as to how anybody chooses to spell “Brigadier”! Ask one.
I also have no doubt that Kingtonians know when they are being patronised and by whom. Irrespective as to which side of the Urals the lecture comes from!
As for this site, well, if we want to have a bit of fun by using pseudonyms we will continue to do so. When it comes to signing the petition – which on a straw poll appears to have much more support than opposition – then we will (of course) not be using pseudonyms.
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Still in UKraine, where the situation is a lot more complex than the Brigadeer writes. I am so sorry that single handly I have not managed over the years to sort out certain individuals in Kington – I suppose I did not realise that this was entirely my responsibilty. I have,when in the UK, scrupuously attended public meetings and tried to put points across which I hoped might help us think constructively. I suppose I do slightly resent the patronising tone that accompanies the comments on my failure to sort Kington out! Could we concentrate now on the issues and not on comments about individuals?
Re a list. I think that this is a process that can start now. If the Council has 15 members, I would be prepared to stand. I do though have to note that my work takes me away from Kington and the UK a lot. Hence my feelings about the numbers – we cannot always expect every council member to be able to put a large amount of time in, nor to be present at every meeting. And we alwayes need to ensure we can achieve a quorum for meetings.
Who else will rise to the challenge? Real names please, not hiding behind site names. I at least always reveal who I am in commenting on this site.
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Sorry. the “fluffies” (wouldn’t it be wonderful if everybody was wonderful) brigade let me get carried away. It is, of course, about TWENTY times – not forty times.
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To get back to the point. I started this thread so that a petition could be presented to Herefordshire Council. “In the Dark” challenges Ms Forrester to start an effective counter campaign by getting together a slate of 15 people that will see the back of the cabal. Quite. Time to put up or shut up.
Meanwhile some of us think that it is quite ludicrous to suggest that this town needs 15 parish councillors when Hereford Parish Council (despite its grand title of Hereford City Council it is a parish council)manages with 17. Of course my point is a valid one. Former civil servants who have worked in bloated public sector organisations with endless expensive levels of management may not get that, but down to earth Kingtonians get common sense. I am delighted to hear that just as, it seems, Viktor Yanukovych (who allegedly nearly succeeded in rigging the last Ukrainian presidential election) is about to return to power that Christine Forrester is sorting out democracy there. Hopefully neither Mr Yanukovych nor his master, the Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin will be a match for her! Stange, isn’t it, that she didn’t sort out Barry Trumper years ago. If she had she might be in a stronger position to lecture to Kington.
Anyway, to get back to Kington and away from patronising lecturing from the steppes. I repeat. Hereford parish has a population roughly FORTY TIMES greater than Kington’s. No doubt with merely two more councillors than Kington (and hopefully soon merely seven more councillors than Kington) they do need more administrative support. They both need it and can afford it – they may have access to something like forty times the income for god’s sake! And yes, if it were necessary (which I doubt) people could be co-opted onto sub committees as Chris M says.
No Mick, she hasn’t made a good case for 15 councillors. Smoke and mirrors. But if the proposal is to be more than hot air I look forward to seeing Christine Forrester getting that list together and publishing it here.
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Mick Rand said “One thing I will never understand is why did the councillor wife of a member of the public not bring to the councils attention all of the so called mistakes identified by her husband? That surely was and is her civic responsibility.”
What an incredibly valid point – it simply proves that Cllr Trumper is unable to function properly as a councillor and should therefore stand down forthwith.
Come to think of it, why doesn’t “that end of the table” ever seem to raise any issues with the clerk’s poorly drafted and often error-ridden minutes. Is it because they would be lost without him, do they support him so that he helps them or do they manipulate the minutes so that they would not gain if they revealed the problems? Oh dear, what a mess, it’s that word dysfunctional again!!
Once again, they should all stand down ……….
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OK, Chris Forrester – please post a list of 15 candidates who are willing to stand at the May 2011 election, ensuring that your list does not include Councillors Newman, Trumper, Handley, Eggerton, Mr Thomas and Turner!!
Then we can see whether we have a realistic prospect of removing the “Old Guard” and their followers and installing councillors who might achieve your objectives.
Then, when you cannot think of 15 people who will be willing, try the same exercise again with 10 names.
Which has the greatest chance of success?
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Sorry folks – I am going to ramble on again – - –
Christine, as always, has put together an excellent case and the more I think about it the actual number of councillors doesn’t really matter. What HAS to happen is that those councillors that are elected do the job efficiently. AND they must be allowed to do the job efficiently. When you think back over the years ask yourself who was it that caused the Millennium mugs fiasco? Who was it that caused umpteen good clerks to leave? Who was it that made most of the complaints? Three councillors knew and because it looked like the boat was going to be rocked they were mysteriously suspended. Who was it that caused the Christmas lights debacle? Getting rid of some of the councillors we do not like is not going to solve the problem. The council does have a problem – it let itself be too heavily influenced by one individual who is not a town councillor. It really doesn’t matter if there are 5 or 50 councillors because one member of the public can and does cause havoc and that will continue until that is sorted. One thing I will never understand is why did the councillor wife of a member of the public not bring to the councils attention all of the so called mistakes identified by her husband? That surely was and is her civic responsibility. All it needed was for her to stand up and state that she will be unable to vote for that minute as there is an error and passing that minute will result in this council possibly acting unlawfully. The council would then have no option other than to reconsider and if necessary correct the error. Was this ever done? No. Consequently the complaints, not being dealt with, were passed on to higher authorities. What is staggering is that there is a collective responsibility in existence and that makes all councillors complicit in very decision. A named or even an unnamed vote indicating that there were a few votes against or abstained does not absolve any councillor from that collective responsibility once the majority vote in favour of the minute. I believe the council is now taking all of the complaints seriously and dealing with them professionally. It is hoped that if new complaints are made that they are investigated and dealt with instantly and not allowed to slide.
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I fully support your view – under normal circumstances. But Kington is NOT ‘Normal’, by the sheer number of complaints referred to Standards for England and bounced back to Herefordshire – at a phenomenal cost – all taken from stretched front-line services!
The Town will doubtless get 12 – 16 or so candidates – if the number of seats remain at 15. There can be no doubt in the minds of all those people who DO use local services, grocers, butchers, greengrocers, hair salons cafes pubs etc that there are many good people that HAVE stood for Council in the past, ‘and never again’ with that same cabal controlling it as has happened in the past. That will happen time after time.
The big opportunity now is to reduce the number of seats substantially, then at the next election there will be competition, and elector selection of who is to run the Town on their behalf. The cabal themselves, they and most reading know who they are, and will get in if 15 stand for 15 seats. And so it will carry on as before, dysfunctional, despite the efforts of Bob, Janet and several others to change and improve things. Reduce the number to 10 and Bob, Celia, Esther, Janet, Ros, Tom, will doubtless be elected (if hopefully they decide to stand) and leave just 4 or so seats to be hotly fought over by one or two other good existing councillors and some new (as well as old/’experienced’) candidates willing to lead the Town forward.
So far as the work-load of 10 doing what 15 have done in the past, that does not really stack up in my view. 15 are infighting (as noted by HC), not only demoralising for them, but an ineffective use of their time – and our funding! How many secret meetings have been held over the ‘Report in the Public Interest’ and the ‘Suspensions’ sagas? All engineered by the cabal. All part of a vendetta. The Christmas Lights saga is just the latest incident of many in the past (Millennium Mugs fiasco?)
10 councillors can co-op others on to sub-committees – so long as they are chaired by a councillor. Most of the work is done by a few, people, and some of them are the ones likely to lose their seats at any contested election, but after many years of being a failing council, it really is a chance to boot out the square pegs in the round holes. What we have had doesn’t work, lets give this very practical step a chance.
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Writing from Ukraine. I disagree with the comments that we will get 10 to stand,but not 15. There are a whole range of reasons why people have not been prepared to stand for the council, not least the presence of some individuals who have in the past made things difficult for those who wish to ensure that the council operates effectively and efficiently. I know only too well the amount of work that is needed to ensure an efficient council – and this burden needs to be shared. The contrast with Hereford Council is not relevant – HCC has staff who carry out functions with delegated powers from the elected body; Kington does not – and the key risk is that the demands made on a clerk (and please notice that I say ‘a clerk’) are likely to lead to further requests for an assistant clerk,which would cost the town in terms of extra staffing costs.
One of the reasons this email comes from Ukraine is that I am working here on programmes to strenghten democracy and accountability of elected bodies to the citizens. I’m afraid that a reduction in the number of elected councillors on Kington Town Council will not extend democracy or accountability – what will do this is an effective working council – it is quality that is important, combined with sufficient elected representatives to ensure that none of these volunteers feels unable to take on the tasks required.
I would hope that the focus could be on the key issue – as I have noted before, providing support and encouragement to those currently on the council who are dedtermined to see change happen, and for Kington to no longer feel ashamed of its council. This is actually far more important than the numbers on the council.
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“Are you the same “CJ” who didn’t get where he is today……..”
Well I am not sure that I did say anything like that,
” by believing that we should all sit back and do nothing about this ourselves??”
“I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, I think it possible you may be mistaken.” (Oliver Cromwell)
But I did say if we always keep, what (or as many)we have always had, we’ll always get who we have always had.
I believe by all accounts there have been some good, and some very good councillors come and go, ones that don’t tell the porkies, forge signatures or enjoy being spiteful to their colleagues, but with 15 councillors the same old gang get in without a (contested) election. If there were 60,000 people in Kington then there would certainly be enough good candidates so the ‘Old Guard’ (as Allan Lloyd described them) do not keep getting in.
And another thing, if there was only 10, the ‘Old Guard’ would have to think long and hard before Suspending THREE councillors again on some fanciful unproven, unspecified, unchallengeable, whim of an officer of the council, on defective legal advice, from that same officer.
“You have sat too long for any good you have been doing. Depart, I say, and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!” (Oliver Cromwell)
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C Forrester writes:
“What is needed is the willingness of enough people to put themselves up so that there can be a properly contested election next year.”
Yes, we all know that, it is merely stating the blindingly obvious but helps not a jot. The point is (as has been shown in election after election) there are not enough people who are willing to stand so as to ensure that the trouble makers are swept away. That is also blindingly obvious. Equally there are not enough people prepared to be on the festival committee or the twinning committee. Just plaintiffly wailing “more people need to stand” will achieve absolutely nothing whereas reducing the council to 10 should.
As to Kington needing 15 councillors? Nonsense. Hereford has twenty times the population of Kington and manages with 17 parish councillors.
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Hi CJ,
Yes and, with specialist employment training, the Clerk problem will also be fixed. We clearly have nothing at all to worry about because, if all the ifs and buts come true, the council will have 15 members who are all sweetness and light come May 2011!!
Are you the same “CJ” who didn’t get where he is today by believing that we should all sit back and do nothing about this ourselves??
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“Kington councillors are to receive specialist employment training this year after a number of complaints.”
OK, the TNT problem’s fixed then!
http://www.herefordtimes.com/news/4890384.Residents_launch_petition_to_reduce_members_on_Kington_Town_Council/
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What an interesting debate! Could I add a word or two. There are some fundamental issues here that need to be thought about. It is not the number of councillors that matters, but how effective they are in their work and how far they understand fully the role and responsibility of a Parish Councillor. The main problem with reducing the number is the burden of meetings and representation that will fall onto fewer shoulders – and could result in those who have skills and experience to offer, but limited time, being less willing to stand for office. This would particularly be the case if further powers are devolved to Town councils and also if people in Kington want a more responsive town council. The number of councillors is not itself the cause of the problems that have beset the council. The cause of the problems is how the council has worked, and the fact that a number of good councillors in the past have been forced out, or refused to stand again because of the antics of a few – both councillors and others outside the council. Quality here is the issue, not quantity – but fewer does not necessarily mean better.
What is needed is the willingness of enough people to put themselves up so that there can be a properly contested election next year. A reduction in the numbers also will not help unless: the council reviews its procedures and then sticks to procedure – I understand that this is starting to happen; effective and efficient support is provided to elected members through an efficient and effective clerk; elected members of the council understand their roles and also the principle of collective responsibility; the town council engages with and listens to local people in general and is not afraid of challenging any singular voices that seek to undermine the work of the council or other bodies in the town that are seeking the improvement of the town as a place to live and work.
Anything else? Yes, ongoing support for those councillors who are working very hard to make the changes.
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“I propose an amendment. There should be 50 Kington Town Councillors. That is clearly in the best interests of the town as then I might (at last) have a chance of getting on to the council.”
Err, No Baz, you don’t understand. If there were 2,500 Councillors and 15 NOT on the Council, I still don’t think you would be…………..
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I agree with Peter – must focus on the subject in hand.
But, and this is a big BUT – all this talk of training, directions, conciliation, intervention by senior officers at Herefordshire Council, the Standards Board for England, a Town Council complaints panel!! There must be significant costs both financially and in the time allocated to all of this by officers, councillors and the Clerk.
Surely there would be no need for all this cost, which must be significant to the council tax payers, if certain councillors (they know who they are and the Blackboard has left no one in doubt)and the Clerk were to simply step down!!
So, come on, do the decent thing you lot and step down in order to save the community time and money and allow others the time and energy to improve the way that the Town Council operates.
In the meantime, let’s get on with the petition.
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I propose an amendment. There should be 50 Kington Town Councillors. That is clearly in the best interests of the town as then I might (at last) have a chance of getting on to the council. Your salvation. And no more wasted electricity!
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TEN COUNCILLORS FOR KINGTON!
I assume that Steve Dudhill is now taking the lead on organising this petition. Marvellous! Gratifying to see that Chris Marsden is offering to help. I am devastated to see that I cannot sign it as I am not an elector. However, as a council tax payer I certainly have a direct interest and wholeheartedly support the petition. Councillor Phillips (the leader of Herefordshire Council) tells me that with 850 electors Pembridge has 13 councillors. However that is fine for two reasons. Firstly it covers a much larger geographical area and secondly it is not dysfunctional.
I think the Brigadier might prefer if this thread focused more on the issue of reducing the council to 10. Other issues are relevant to that issue but lack of focus leads to blur. Mind you, “Brigadier”? I have heard a rumour that his only “military” experience was to be a lance corporal in the Combined Cadets Force in school! Sorry “Brigadier” I am getting off the issue.
TEN COUNCILLORS FOR KINGTON!
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The details of the Pentre Tump planning meeting are in the Mid Wales Journal, where one can find lots of useful information that KTC could not be bothered to tell us about or be expected to discuss in sufficient time to formulate a response!!
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May I be the first to jump in and defend KTC – in some small part!
You say “I see that the agenda for next Monday is not on the KTC web site”
It IS, if you persevere, although at a glance one might think it was on the 25th Jan. It should be available on:-
http://kingtontown.co.uk/nfDocuments.asp?Section=Information&DocNo=Doc4092
(Why a Town Council should have a “.co.uk” address beats me!)
Another gem on the agenda is
“To decide on planning applications: -
. . .
b. RAD/2002/0397
Notification from Powys County Council in relation to a planning meeting at 11.15am on 2nd February 2010 in relation to the Construction of three wind turbines at Pentre Tump Llanfihangel-Nant Melan, New Radnor”
Now that is NOT on the web site, so if the first we hear about this is on the 1st, and WHERE it is, it does not give a lot of advance warning of this important meeting on the 2nd!!!
Anyway not many people are likely to attend our Town Council Meeting on Monday evening as, (in my view) the Notice for the meeting has not been given despite what the clerk claims:-
(Most recent at the top)
29/1/10
The Clerk KTC.
Thank you for the reply.
You are right the matter HAS been raised before, but no comprehensive reply has been received before, hence the further communication.
The 1972 Act you quote states Three Clear Days. That excludes Saturdays, Sundays, Bank Holidays, the day of posting, and the day of the meeting.
It then goes on to state “notice of the time and place of the intended meeting shall be fixed in some conspicuous place in the parish”. This has NOT been complied with, as I stated. By no stretch of the imagination could any REASONABLE person conclude the passageway leading to the council chamber is “some conspicuous place”. It is not a highway in so far as it is not recorded on the List of Streets nor the Definitive Map, therefore is not a “Highway” nor dedicated to the public so far as is publicly known. Nor is it accessible to less-abled persons. Does this not matter to you or the Council?
Do you dispute that when last raised in November 2009 the Mayor INSTRUCTED that you DO place FUTURE Notices of Meetings on the Market Hall Notice Board?
Will you please place this matter – whether the Summons to Meetings should, or should not, be posted on the Market Hall Notice Board on the February Agenda?
I trust Mrs Brown will indeed take note of the inability to read, in the evenings, in safety, in convenience, for ALL the public, the location you chose to post such MANDATORY notices, in contradiction to the Mayor’s express Orders to you, and report accordingly.
Therefore I look forward to attending the unlawfully convened meeting on Monday.
Regards,
Chris Marsden
KTC Clerk wrote
>
> Mr. Marsden
>
> Thank you for your observations.
>
> Below is an extract from The Local Government Act 1972 Sch 12 para 10(2).
>
> (2) Three clear days at least before a meeting of a parish council—
>
> (a) notice of the time and place of the intended meeting shall be fixed in some conspicuous place in the parish and, where the meeting is called by members of the council, the notice shall be signed by those members and shall specify the business proposed to be transacted at the meeting.
>
>
>
> Also below that is an extract from the Public Bodies (Admission to Meetings) Act 1960 S1 para 4(a)
>
> (4) Where a meeting of a body is required by this Act to be open to the public during the proceedings or any part of them, the following provisions shall apply, that is to say,—
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> (a) public notice of the time and place of the meeting shall be given by posting it at the offices of the body (or, if the body has no offices, then in some central and conspicuous place in the area with which it is concerned) three clear days at least before the meeting or, if the meeting is convened at shorter notice, then at the time it is convened.
>
> With greatest of respect I fail to see what in the legislation has been breached. You have raised this point before and I feel it is unhelpful to continue to raise issues which have already been covered. As you are aware from Wednesday’s meeting Mrs Brown will be conducting a thorough review of the Governance of Kington Town Council. I would have also thought it prudent to await the outcome of that review.
>
> As you can see according to law and statue the meeting on Monday 1st February 2010 will be lawful and I will look forward to seeing you there.
>
> 29/1/10
> Clerk, KTC.
>
> It appears, yet again, for at least the fourth time, and in defiance of a DIRECT ORDER that Council Meetings MUST be displayed on the MAIN MARKET HALL Notice Board this is STILL not being done.
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> Probably 99% of the people of Kington who SHOULD be able to see the Notice will not have done so, through no fault of theirs.
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> Obviously yet again the meeting will be unlawful if it proceeds.
>
> If I am mistaken in any of these observations, perhaps you will enlighten me.
>
> Chris Marsden
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Thanks Chris,
I see that the agenda for next Monday is not on the KTC web site either, though I als note that the last planning committee agenda was missing from the web site too.
Simple matters but important if the Town Council is to communicate with its electors and is to make best use of a web site that costs the Town £500 per year!!
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Steve, as I said earlier, I will gladly help with Petition.
Expecting a Full Council Meeting next Monday (1/2/10) I looked for the MANDATORY Notice on the Council Notice Board this evening. Oh Dear not there! AGAIN!
Remember KINGTON Town Council failed to hold the Mandatory Annual Town Meeting last year because the responsible officer did not post the Notice.
I wrote (on 17/11/09) to the Mayor, Deputy Mayor, and the clerk:-
“Kington did NOT hold a lawful Annual Town Meeting in 2009.
The HEREFORDSHIRE Standards Committee have stated there was a: “clear breach of Kington Town Council Standing Orders,”
Despite this, the clerk failed to lawfully advertise the full council meeting of the 2/11/09
On this date you INSTRUCTED the clerk to display Notices of meetings on the main notice boards on the Market Hall in future.
On the 16/11/09 TWO identical Notices were posted on the OFFICE board.
YET AGAIN NO NOTICE WAS POSTED ON THE MAIN NOTICE BOARD ON THE MARKET HALL.”
What is the matter with the Council Office? It is only about 80 steps to walk to the official Town Notice Board, why cant the clerk comply with the LAW and also the direct instruction to him from the Mayor, to post the Agenda as is REQUIRED by the law of the land?
He now closes the office to the public for 2 of his 3 days each week so he can do these sort of jobs, but STILL it is not being done. The Council does not reply, nor take any Notice, then wonders why there are piles of complaints?
This is where the Notices SHOULD be posted:-
* Kington has TWO Noticeboards, one is a large double cabinet, stating ‘KINGTON TOWN NOTICES’
* It is mounted on the wall of the historic Market Hall
* It is on a highway, prominent beside the Main road through Kington.
* In the very Centre of Town at the Junction of High Street / Church Street / Mill Street.
* Has a street light illuminating it immediately in front
* Is adjacent to several other frequently used notice boards
* A prominent Notice says MINUTES are available on the another Notice Board and in the Library.
* It has been in customary use for the posting of the Agendas – thus there is a ‘presumption of regularity’
* Precedents have been set by the Town Council accepting a complaint on an earlier omission (once) to post an Agenda on this board, by a former Clerk
* Many people read the Boards every day of the week, in short it is ideally placed.
The Other Notice Board where an Agenda copy HAS been posted
* Is smaller
* On private land (albeit has ‘public access’ and adjacent to a council car-park)
* is in a very narrow service passageway to the council office, with a step to negotiate,
* therefore impractical for any wheelchair or ‘electric buggy’ to access
* has no adequate street lighting to read by in the evening time,
* has a myriad of other pages, Minutes and legal notices, many out of date
* has very few people pass it, by comparison
* Is tucked away around the corner from the TiC where visitors, not the interested local residents are likely to see it.
Is there something the clerk is trying to hide? Yet again the meeting – if it proceeds on Monday – is UNLAWFUL. Why flout the law repeatedly (at least FOUR times)? Why don’t the councillors take the clerk to task?
Yes the Council is dysfunctional, yes it is not yet showing signs of improvement.
Will the PETITION help? Yes I think it will, simply as 10 people have more chance of taking some constructive action than 15 bickering! All we need is the right 10 are selected – but that MUST be left to the ballot box, lets hope we do not have to wait another 16 months for the chance! First step has to be the motion is accepted to reduce the numbers.
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The following extracts are taken from my letter on this subject, printed in the Hereford Times last autumn:-
“COMMUNITY GOVERNANCE REVIEW FOR KINGTON
Kington Town Council has been declared dysfunctional on a number of occasions by Herefordshire Council. It has a history of a few long-serving Councillors brow-beating newcomers, recurrent internal disputes, secretive dealings and it is inefficient and far from cost-effective. It has a lack of credibility in the community and a number of people and local organisations wish to have little to do with the Council. Few people are sufficiently inspired to stand for election and the majority of the current Councillors have not been democratically elected [by poll] by the people of Kington. The recent vacancy has had to be filled by co-option, with only one candidate standing, following insufficient interest for a properly contested election.
Part of Kington’s problem is that it has too many Councillors. This contributes to the Council’s inefficiency and the lack of proper governance. It also means that there is less likelihood of Councillors having to stand for re-election [by poll] rather than being returned unopposed which, in turn, means that such Councillors do not properly represent the people. This is clearly undemocratic.
The case for a reduction in the number of Councillors, consistent with the real needs of the community and in order to achieve more efficient and convenient governance, should therefore be properly considered. This can be achieved by submitting a petition to Herefordshire Council requiring them to undertake a Community Governance Review, under the Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Act 2007. It is therefore intended to submit a petition to Herefordshire Council having the following proposition:-
“We the undersigned, each being a local government elector for Kington Town, in pursuance of the powers conferred to us by the above Act of Parliament, hereby require you to undertake a community governance review which shall consider our proposal to reduce the number of Councillors on Kington Town Council from its present 15 members to 10 members for the purpose of achieving more effective and convenient governance that reflects the interests of the local community, the change to be effected at the May 2011 council elections.””
The situation has, if anything, worsened since the above letter was published.
Everyone in Kington knows about the Town Council’s abysmal handling of the Christmas lights issue, for some reason influenced by Mr Trumper. Visitors to the Blackboard will know all about the Clerk’s attempt to extract a pay rise and obtain an assistant, despite the Council’s move to close the office for two days a week and to reduce the numbers of committees, a clear case of continued mismanagement. Frankly, the Council is still a shambles and more dysfuctional than ever.
In the absence of the councillors resigning and offering themselves for re-election, in order to save substantial ongoing costs, the petition is therefore perhaps our best chance of seeking to encourage Herefordshire Council to provide a means whereby the right people will be elected in May 2011 and the wrong people can be left in no doubt about what the electors think of them.
The support of the people of Kington for the petition will therefore be welcome and it is intended to begin to canvass signatures shortly. In the meantime, anyone who is interested in helping to canvass for signatures, or who is simply willing to sign the petition, provided they are a registered elector, should contact me (01544 232787 or via the Blackboard) in order to register their interest.
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Thanks Bob. The list of organisations and those councillors who serve on them is as follows:-
Lady Hawkins Foundation – Mr Harvey Jones
Market Town Forum – Cllrs Banks, Newman and Trumper
Market Town Core Committee – Cllrs Banks and Grant
Local Area Forum – Cllrs Banks and Grant
HALC – Cllrs Banks and Grant
Kington Festival Association – Cllr Bounds
Kington Museum – Cllr Squire
Kington Chamber of Trade – Cllrs Banks and Grant
Kington Youth Club – Cllr Eggerton
Kington Tourist Group – Cllr Trumper
Lady Hawkins Leisure Centre – Cllr Mr Thomas
Kington Twinning Association – Cllrs Banks, Grant and Squire
Regeneration Partnership – Cllrs Banks and Grant
Kington United Charities – Cllr Banks
The mayor and deputy mayor serve on most of the outside bodies. Mr Jones is not a councillor. The others who serve, on not more than a maximum of two bodies but usually on only one body are Newman (1), Trumper (2), Squire (2), Eggerton (1), Bounds (1) and Mr Thomas (1).
Only eight councillors serve on the fourteen outside bodies. Most of the posts are filled by the mayor and deputy mayor.
So, Bob, your worry about having only ten councillors to serve on fourteen bodies is not borne out by the evidence. In fact, with ten willing and able councillors it might be possible for the mayor and deputy to delegate some of their responsibilities to other councillors, allowing the Council to be managed more effectively and to be represented on the bodies more actively than at present.
There is nothing here to suggest that ten councillors couldn’t sensibly manage this, especially as the Council minutes do not report much in the way of attendance at meetings of the outside bodies by any councillors, of course, with the exception of the Newman and Trumper jollies with the Market Towns Forum which seems to be part of their power trip!!
Anyone else for ten??
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The 14 outside bodies can be found in the KTC minutes of 8 May 2009 – The Annual Meeting.
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Just a thought, but here are some of the things that are taking up councillors’ time at present:-
1. Training sessions by HALC.
2. A complaints panel is looking into a raft of complaints, most of them against the Clerk.
3. Web site – a panel to look into the farcical web site, the failings of which (if you look at other authority’s use of the same software e.g. Weobley Parish, Lyonshall Parish) are entirely down to the Clerk.
4. Reconciliation – preparation for the forthcoming meeting and actions by Herefordshire Council to seek to draw to a close the serious dysfunctionality which has been rife, particularly since the current Clerk was appointed.
I am not suggesting for a moment that councillors will be twiddling their thumbs once these matters are dealt with. However, one would hope that, by May 2011 these issues, including the Clerk and bad councillors, will have gone away and that KTC can look forward to an easier workload, allowing more time for fewer councillors to provide the proper governance that Kington so desperately needs.
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I think for the time being I would just like to be one name on the petition. I am certain there are plenty of others who can organise meetings.
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“In the Dark” suggests that Mick organise a meeting. Excellent idea. This would have nothing to do with the council, but just be a meeting of concerned residents to organise a petition. No doubt others, in addition to CJ, would come forward to circulate a petition – if it can be organised. The Hereford City Council analogy (a parish council, despite its grand name) makes the proposal unanswerable for me.
On thing that does concern me is this. Will this be done, or will there just be a lengthy wordy debate? The proposal is hardly new – or mine. I have discussed it with a number of people, including Terry James. I thought it was in hand as a proposal. It was only when I realised that in fact nothing was being DONE that I framed and posted my proposal. PLEASE, let us get this organised and done.
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14 outside bodies – Bob, can you tell us who they all are and how many current councillors serve on those outside bodies? Are they all relevant? I doubt it! Do they throw up a lot of extra work? I doubt it! As Mick asks, are they all necessary? I really doubt it! In fact, looking at past council minutes, it seems that councillors do not attend many outside bodies’ meetings as not many are reported. That said, it is clear that some serve on outside bodies in order to get things done that KTC cannot (or will not) do – remember the Xmas lights anyone?
It’s not uncommon for councillors to represent a number of organisations. That seems to be the nature of the beasts! However, sensible councillors can determine their own workloads and priorities.
Add to this the proposed reduction in the numbers of committees and, hopefully, the effect of having 10 positive people, willing to serve and to carry out productive work, the existing good councillors’ workloads should reduce.
In fact, again hopefully, having 10 good councillors who are approachable and open to the people might well allow the council to encourage others to become co-opts and to bring issues and input to council meetings instead of staying away, as they do now, because they cannot trust some of the current incumbents or because they cannot stomach the conflict.
Alternatively,you could leave it at 15 and make it really easy for Trumper (Mrs), Newman, Trumper (Mr!), Turner, Thomas (Mr) and Eggerton to make it back in in 2011 for another four years (I’m assuming that Handley won’t qualify as he’ll be in Almeley). Oh, and even “Local Trader” might get in if there are too many places and not enough good candidates.
Oh yes, CJ, whilst I was having a dig at the lazy councillors, I was also having a dig at the hobbyists. That’s why I said “It seems to me that five or six of the current councillors do very little, and some of those that do do very little that’s positive.”
The status quo is NOT therefore an option.
Mick, can we have another one of your meetings so that this can be aired in public, so that canvassers can volunteer and so that petitions can be circulated?
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Oh dear! I have sent the debate off in the wrong direction again – sorry folks – well I did say I was being fanciful. Now, being serious, I am aware of the 14 outside bodies which have Town Councillors sitting upon them as representatives and a reasonably good job is done. Kington Regeneration, Market Towns Forum etc are vital. Others are very useful and I am sure some are not really necessary. It is my opinion that if outside organisations can only exist with a Town Councillor amongst their number then that appointment is 100% vital, i.e. if the outside organisation’s constitution demands a Town Councillor. I suspect Boards of – Groups of – Committees of – will still exist and thrive without a KTC representative. Council working parties can afterall invite people to contribute to a discussion as can outside organisations invite councillors to join in a debate. I am sticking to 10 being the optimum number of Town Councillors. It is up to the Councillors elected to decide their workload.
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Bob said: “KTC is currently represented on 14 outside bodies. That will have to reduce if we reduce the numbers available unless those that are left spend more time on council business. You might find that deters potential candidates. After all we are volunteers and its hard enough to get anyone to volunteer for anything at the moment as many groups now find.”
# There is surely the option to appoint people for ad-hoc purposes and committees?
# Hereford City has 18 Councillors for 60,000 electors (iirc). Suggesting we have about 20 times too many?
# ‘If we always do what we’ve always done, we’ll always have what we’ve always got’.
# It hasn’t worked well, and consistently, in the past, less people to frustrate what others are doing productively.
# 5 could achieve more than 15 if there was only constructive debate rather than point scoring.
# The problem, ItD as I see it, is not the lazy ones, as much as a very few obsessive ones who treat it as a hobby, who are vindictive to others, and condescending to electors, and can not be relied upon to speak truthfully.
For these reasons, I strongly support the proposition and will willingly help circulate it!
I am not disagreeing with you Bob, just throwing more observations into the pot.
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Mick,
I was just counting legislators i.e those who pass laws. In the UK that is only parliament and the devolved governments. Civil servants and local councillors are extra. It is a common myth that the UK is over governed. On the contrary the US can beat us on every count as over governed, over regulated etc.
For me the critical issue is less about the number of Councillors than the number of elected councillors.IKTC is currently represented on 14 outside bodies. That will have to reduce if we reduce the numbers available unless those that are left spend more time on council business. You might find that deters potential candidates. After all we are volunteers and its hard enough to get anyone to volunteer for anything at the moment as many groups now find. So not for, not against, just want to consider the implications in more depth. Problem of being a Libran!
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How many councillors does it take to change a light bulb?? Well, too many cooks and all that suggests that 15 is far too many!!
It seems to me that five or six of the current councillors do very little, and some of those that do do very little that’s positive. So 10 decent councillors, willing to put in the effort and not wasting so much time in-fighting and in dealing with complaints, should be able to do MUCH MORE than the current 15.
I therefore agree with the Brigadier, Mick Rand and CJ, 10’s enough.
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Bob, I will partially concede that point, but I was trying to avoid the number of our Civil Service, County Council and local Council employees. I suspect we have a few.
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This does seem an excellent proposition, and the Blackboard is an ideal way for it to be debated, explained and scrutinised first.
The long history of Kington TC being a laughing-stock, the butt of the Eardisley Pantomime jokes needs no rehearsing, the complaints that the Standards Board are investigating may in part be caused by too many councillors, they certainly have not worked cohesively for many a year. Several have made a mockery of the system, ‘playing at councils’, posing, one even being happy to be mistakenly thought of as County Councillor. With ALL bar one gaining a seat at UNCONTESTED elections or co-opted on to the council as there has been no competition to be a councillor for the Town, hence less pride or mandate to decide.
Reducing to 10 would solve this and hopefully restore pride in representing the Town, more people to stand, and hopefully ALL the existing Councillors, in little more than a years time we could have the new beginning we need.
There should be no need nor justification for the myriad of complaints that have been lobbed about (other than those about the administration/office).
It is costing US, the residents, £1/4Million pounds for every 5 years they exist, and the Christmas Lights saga shows just how ineffective they really were – until bailed out by the Chamber of Trade – and the attempts by the husband of one councillor to even try to stop that! IF we have a Town Council, lets ensure we have a core of enthusiastic, dedicated people who have the TOWN at heart, not their own personal agendas.
I am in no way suggesting that there are not a (small) majority of diligent hard working councillors on the council now.
Finally, proof there ARE TOO MANY Councillors – they even had to suspend THREE Councillors (from ALL the various sub-committees) just a year ago! The problem being the wrong ones, suspended the wrong ones! (Needless to say the newer councillors were suspended – by the ‘Old Guard’ as Allan Lloyd put it, feared their power and control was being wrested away from them!)
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Mick,
You miss an important point in your US comparison. The US has 50 state governments each with its own legislature which may have a lower and upper house and an average of 150 to 200 representatives. In other words to the US congress must be added a further 12500 legislators producing a ratio one to 24,600. On that basis the UK comes out pretty well.
I have no strong view on KTC except to warn that it should not be judged solely on what it does now but what it might do in the future. Set the agenda and then judge how many are needed to deliver it
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I am in overall agreement in having 10 only Kington Town Councillors and will support this petition.
Although sometimes I think that even 10 is too many. When you consider that it is a failing of this country to have too many chiefs and not enough Indians it makes good economic sense to reduce the number. Now I am going to get all fanciful to illustrate my point – In the USA they have 435 Congress Persons and 102 Senators to govern a population of 308,499,000. i.e. one Congress person for every 709,193 members of the population and one Senator for every 3,024,500.
In this country we have 646 MP’s and 738 members of the House of Lords. Do the sums – Let’s say 60,000,000 residents. That represents 92,789 per one MP and 81,300 per Lord. 346 would be enough MP’s, and 100 (population – elected) Lords would be ample, think of what we would all save on expenses!!!!
Kington has 15 councillors for approximately 2,500 (a bit generous) i.e. one for every 166. Now when you consider the work load, there is a good case for only having 4 councillors. (And that could be 2 too many). I also think it is worth finding out just how many councillors sit on other Herefordshire based City, Town, Parish and Rural councils.
SMACK – reality has just hit me, so back to being sensible – one day, well after I start to push up daisies, City, Town, Parish and Rural councils will get devolved powers, so let’s live in hopes and settle for 10 and hope exciting things are to come.
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